Multiple 250pt threat theory

Hi all,

I'm going to share some of the idea's I've been working on:

Basically, my thought is that in an army the day's of deathstars are well over and you need to be able to split your resources, this allows you to react to multiple threats as well as creating redundancy. But also safish from one sweeping advance!

So when making a list, I try and have in 1500pts, 7 or so units. I am looking for:

• moderate resilience, I need the unit to be able to stay in the open for a turn and not be auto lost.
• Threat!, it has to be a unit which can put out the damage if ignored, should be able to put some 'serious' hurt onto most units.
• Speed, is nice to be able to respond.
• Difference! The rest are obvious, but this one I have been realising is key, by having different units you can spread out what your army does and thus have more fun as well as having different games. But also from a tactical perspective provides huge amounts more options and makes the list harder to fight as there's no obvious starting position. 

What allies allows you is to be able to have multiple different units all of which are powerful in their own right.

So: sample loyalist list,

Blood angels:

HQ: Mephiston 250

Troops: 10 assault marines, 2 meltaguns, powerfist 235

10 death company 200pts

Elite: Sanguinary Priest: jump pack 75

Heavy Support: Storm Raven: multi melta 200

Secondary Contingent

Grey Knights:

Inquisitor: Psyker, divination (primaris) 55

5 Terminators: 2 hammers, 3 halberds 200

10 Grey Knights: 2 psycannons, psybolt ammo 240

Right so this comes to 1455 or so, and I'm not going to say its' the greatest list ever. 

But what it does do is have lots of solid units all of which dish out some damage. You've got anti flyer covered to a sense and with 6 different units they all do different things! Which is great, it allows you as the player to use your resources to beat your opponent not play a game of rock paper scissors, oh i'm playing venom spam, oh you have 6 riflemen dreadnoughts is not fun :(

I'm just going to touch on HQ's, I think these guys can be a make or break for a list. Of recent, I've become a fan of the super hards, the likes of abaddon, lysander, mephiston etc. These become threats of their own and while you can join units, don't be afraid to split to go eat a squad by yourself!

The only other characters I'd consider would be the very cheap support ones, of which the 55pt divination psyker for GK is a steal! about as good as it gets!

I'd consider characters like the GK Grandmaster to be a trap, 175 odd points for someone who isn't a threat. I know he's got a 3+ in combat etc, but sooner or later he'll take a power fist or meltagun. Can you leave a unit and charge in lone with him, yes but it only takes one stray heavy weapon and he's gone! If you can't take an eternal warriored nutter, go cheap and put points into solid units!

Until next time,

The real cute hydra

WIP: flying base for a Heldrake

Chaos Marine Codex Review

Hi Hi, I have done a quite thorough and in depth Chaos Marine Codex Review, it had some format issues on here so it can be found: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/480686.page

In the meantime have to tell myself that representing all 15 of my chaos spawns with:

Is a really bad idea... Must remember than when looking for budget alternatives that Forgeworld is NOT the place to look!

Concepts of list writing, MSU & Redundancy

Hey hey,

Today I am going to be looking at key concepts when writing an army list:



Fist of all I am going to look at specialised vs. un specialised: 

10 Man Tactical Squad, meltagun, missile launcher, sergeant with power fist [Unspecialised]
5 man stormtrooper squad, 2 meltaguns, deepstrike operations [specialised]

Right, so the difference being the marine tactical squad can do lots of different things, it can bolter things from 24 inch away, it can pop light vehicles from 48 inches away, it can melta heavier stuff and even have a go at things in a pinch with the powerfist... I am not advocating it is a great unit, I am just saying that it is a versatile one.

Now the specialised unit is the stormtrooper unit which does one thing... it deepstrikes next to tanks and blows them up... fully expecting to then be removed quickly from the board in the opponents turn. It is never going to really do a lot to infantry even with hot shots and meltaguns but for just over 100pts and the role it does [popping armour] is a sufficiently crucial one that I have played these guys.

Now we look at the idea of the so called leafblower list, this is the idea that you can have something to kill everything in there army at optimum efficiency. So if we look at guard who can often do this best: you might have a basilisk to ap 3 kill marines or MEQ, you might have some Leman Russ Exterminators (tons of plasma) to deal with Terminators and you might have some melta vets to deal with armour... This is a simplification of course but this is the rough principle we are going with... 

It should be noted that the original leafblower was using old WH Mystics to deter deepstrikers forcing them to deploy their army and then nuked it off the board with artilery. Though if I recall correctly the tournament where it won all games he did get first turn in all games which can often be critical for such a strategy.. 

Anyway.. I digress, so this brings us to the idea of what do we build a list to be able to do?

Most of us, who may not go as far to make a list able to surgically remove an opponents army make sure we cover certain things:

Anti Tank: you need to have some way of dealing with armour be it missile launchers, meltaguns etc else you can't stop the inevitable land raider cruising around your lines.
Manoeuvrability; being an objective based game you need to have some way of getting your troops to the objectives.
Troops: you hardly want to lose the game cos they killed your two troops and then beat you on first blood...
AA: with flyers becoming more prevalent most people like to have a flak gun in their lines or flyers of their own...

-----

Now the concept I am next going to cover is redundancy.. as in duplicates of the same things: for example I can't have 1 meltagun in my list as if I lose it I'm helpless vs. heavy armour... so what's the safe amount of meltaguns... the answer to that question in 5th ed was usually the same number as you had special weapon slots... 

So... the trick to finding a good list is you find an efficient unit for each of these rolls.. so if we look at the old spacewolf list.. we have greyhunters (tick troops) with meltaguns (tick antitank), in rhinos (tick manoeuvrability  with long fangs for support (tick anti tank) then you have 4 units of the first and 3 of the latter (tick redundancy). The nice thing about the whole thing is how efficient everything is.. as you are not paying a premium of points comparatively for anything. 

What role does Redundancy have in 6th ed or indeed in the game... well I would say it's optional but a very good optional. 

This is because lists can work that have singles of everything, now that we have allies in the game you have access to a lot more units this means in your search you no longer rely on the 3 efficient units in your book. So lets take our Space Wolf Example say you wanted to have some blast weapons in your army... sure you could take a SW Vindicator or a dread with plasma but why would you as they are decidedly lack luster compared to Longfangs in slot. But now you can take a fast Vindicator or a Plasma Russ from allies things are looking a bit brighter. For this reason: I think Allies have broken the stuffiest part of 40k and that was the nature of if you want an efficient list you have a choice of x units from your codex... 

However, you end up paying the HQ tax, for example: 

In my chaos army I want reliable anti tank so I insert:

Necron Lord: 90pts
15 warriors: 195pts
3 Crypteks, harbinger of despair - veil of darkness, 2 storm crypteks 110pts

Right... my 15 warriors can glance vehicles to death from 24 inch away and my 3 crypteks teleport within 12 inches of a vehicle remove it graphically with a hail of haywire death.. presumably get shot up and hopefully pass 1 get back up and then I have a choice of a storm cryptek running around taking another vehicle with him or a veil of darkness to conserve victory points... 

This provides me a reliable way of dealing with tanks in my chaos army that is not obliterators Whoo! the problem is I have this 100pt lord who doesn't do anything.... the best option give him a 2+ save and stick him at the front of the warriors to take bullets, but I call this the HQ tax...

The message! You can take individual units and not have redundancy but you still need to have the key points covered.

----

Options: 

The weakness of one dimensional units: is that some of the time they are useless... it's as simple as that.

40k is a game of options: an example is I have a unit in the middle of the board.. I can choose whether to advance it towards an objective, to stand still and fire a heavy weapon, to run forwards to assault or to target a specific unit. In my previous articles I have highlighted additional options you have with units based on their footprint (enemy units cannot get within 1inch of you) but it's as simple as you choose what to do with your unit to best further the objectives. Usually:

Kill an enemy unit
Protect your unit
Control an objective

Eventually, you or your opponent will not have any options left and that is when the game is over.

For example: we are playing a relic game, I have the relic with a 10 man tactical squad, my opponent has 100 khorne berserker's. He can move 6 inches a turn and assault possibly 12.. I will be moving 6 away. As long as I am 12.1 inches away at the start of my move he can't catch me. He has run moves to counterbalance this so assuming he gets a 6 on each run. I need to be 18.1 -x (where x is my run move result) away to be safe. So each turn I can access whether I am going to be safe.. if I am 30 inches away at the start.. I am pretty sure that even in 2-3 turns he's still not going to get me.. 

HE HAS NO OPTIONS

Assuming he has no shooting.. he can't catch me. Obviously this is a massively simplified example that would never happen in game, but when playing objective wise you should be able to easily calculate What are my opponents optimum options? When he has no army.. or no army that is relevant to the objectives you are victorious. 

So we look at a multi roled unit.. Why I love chaos terminators.. you can take combi weapons: 

so if we compare 
5 Assault Terminators: 3 storm shields and Thunder hammer and 2 lightning claws
5 Chaos Terminators: 3 combi melta, 2 combi plasma, 2 chainfists, 3 power swords, mark of tzeentch

They are similar points, and it's true.. in combat the loyalists would most likely win based on who charged etc.. However... in a one on 1 there is nothing the loyalists can do without charging out of a land raider to stop themselves getting shot up with ap2 weapons. 

7 shots, 4 hits, 3-4 wounds, 1-2 dead terminators assuming the traitors deepstrike to the side to catch the lightning claws with target priority etc. But the point is: the loyalists don't really have any good options... except charge in and use their single focused efficiency at that one thing. 

Meanwhile, the Traitors are quite happy blowing up tanks, ap2ing Terminators, or even just charging stuff...

-----

Multiple Small Units (MSU)

I have saved this till after the options category on purpose. The strength of MSU is the rule: you can only shoot at one unit with each of your units... 

Now if we compare 

10 grey hunters: usual gear

10 grey hunters: usual gear

10 grey hunters: usual gear

10 grey hunters: usual gear

5 Longfangs; 4 missile launchers
5 Longfangs; 4 missile launchers
5 Longfangs; 4 missile launchers

with the Dark Eldar Venom Spam list:


5 warriors, blaster, venom-2nd splinter cannon
5 warriors, blaster, venom-2nd splinter cannon


5 warriors, blaster, venom-2nd splinter cannon
5 warriors, blaster, venom-2nd splinter cannon

5 warriors, blaster, venom-2nd splinter cannon
5 warriors, blaster, venom-2nd splinter cannon

Ravager
Ravager
Ravager

Right... both sides clearly want first turn which is why the Baron is usual in such a DE list.. but anyway, the point is that if the  SW go first they can ONLY kill 3 units. So let's say they blow up all 3 Ravagers... and then 3 venoms and then 3 more venoms it's predictable and the DE player banks on loosing some of his units.. they are armour 10 for heavens sake... he doesn't care. 

However he has 9 units doing that job... the SW have 3.. and you can bet that the 108 anti infantry shots are going straight at those longfangs. When I was piloting DE MSU Venom Spam I loved SW cos they were predictable.. I knew that if I went second I'd reserve, if he went second he couldn't cos he couldn't move his fangs and shoot... I knew I could drop 5-10 wolves if not the full 15... he would take a few ravagers in his death throws and then I would kite his long fangs around the board for a few hours before I eventually shot him down...

Now I am aware that the beloved longfangs can shoot two different units.. which makes them a slightly poor example.. (not that the sergeant ever survived a turn anyway). Referring to previous examples see the article about protecting objectives from superior units abuse the fact that he can only massacre one of your units a turn! 

Understand Multi Charge... he can ONLY multiply charge you IF he cannot fit any more of his models in contact with the primary unit... therefore if you make your unit nice and accessable he has no chance to go OH NO I can't make it into your unit.. I guess I'll have to multi charge instead.. 

Right... so what I am saying by all this: KNOW YOUR OPTIONS and you can play the game before it's played... if we look at a fantasy example... 

Chaos player have 100000 Chaos Warriors in a unit... 

I have 6 15pt Warlock Engineers.. I stand them in a long line individually  in front of the warriors. 

Warriors have two options.. try and maneuver around him.. it's not happening with a unit that big.. 

Or charge: he charges.. butchers the engineer overuns into the next one.. the skaven player knows he has 3 turns where that unit does nothing..  When we include the turn or two to get into the middle of the board.. The skaven player has locked that unit out of the game for 90pts.. meanwhile he needs to kill 190pts of the chaos players other units to win the game..

Now if we look at the same principle in 40k what MSU allows you is that ability to predict the game.. there is no worrying about what if my 500pt unit Terminators led by Abaddon fluff horribly... cos you play around the principle that your units will do there job and if they don't well you have 8 units that do the same thing. 

-----

So with that all discussed I am going to talk about what I have been nursing as my baby for the last few months... 

The concept of specialised redundancy for opponent denial... Okay what does that actually mean...

It should be expected that your opponent will have SOME anti tank... 

Let's say the humble autocannon a contender for one of the best anti armour 10-11 weapon in the game... But it sucks vs. MEQ okay it forces saves but it's hardly worth the heavy weapon slot.. So let's say my opponent spends 300 pts on anti armour in a 1500pt game but then I rock up to the table with ALL infantry.. he's reduced to firing autocannons at my standard men.. okay meltagunning a tactical squad marine is satisfying but is it really efficient. So you can to an extent play the game 300pts up.. 

So how does this work: well we still need to cover all our bases, this means really speaking we have a choice between all infantry or all tanks... 

The old Guard list of a wall of armour 12 worked on the principle of MSU/redundancy combined with a decent firepower conveniently hydras and artilery is armour 12 too... so your opponent would be able to deal with some of the armour 12.. but not all of it. 

So advantages of both: 

Tank army: 

• you have the manoeuvrability as you will no doubt have transports 
• Firepower: tanks boast some of the most impressive weapons
• Limited threats: if you can silence your opponents heavy support you may have already won..

• Equally, you need 'some' troops to capture objectives, which have to get out in 4/6 missions.
• Can't assault.. meaning mopping up that straggling 2 men that survived the demolisher cannon by going to ground in open cover can be a pain.
• Hidden weapons... trying to get at that meltagun hidden in a squad is a real pain.

Infantry:

• You have a lot more individual footprint power, you can change formations.. block people off.
• Can assault (see above)
• It takes a lot more shots to kill you.. without templates it takes atleast 10 shots to kill your 10 man unit.. none of this one shot dead rubbish.
• A lot of armies skimp on anti infantry.. how many times have you seen flamers or plasma cannons as special/heavy choices.

• Manoeuvrability.. your moving 6... I hope you like it, okay sure you could... take jump infantry go for a BA assault marine list or something but then you start getting expensive pretty quick.
• Leadership.. can be a bit of a pain
• Reliant on cover.. sometimes you just can't break cover without being annihalated by plasma/demolisher death etc.

Right, so these are just some idea's that I can look at to get started.. I am planning on piloting an All infantry list as my first real 6th ed army.. and for this reason I am very excited by the idea of 13pt CSM's... 

-----

The list that I am playing around with at the moment from what I know of the new book :)

Chaos Sorcerer: mark of slaanesh

Chaos Sorcerer: mark of slaanesh 

These guys are 60pts + MOS and I am thinking of running them as lvl 1's for their signature power.. initiative test or be blind.. I won't lie.. this is purely a screw you to necrons :) Being nearly all Initiative 2 across the board.. being able to reliably reduce them to BS1 rocks.. Against the more standard 4, being able to have a 1/3 chance of stopping a devastator unit firing for a turn.. or crippling them is good. I also have the option to hit them with both psykers in a turn if the first one does a wound as it means they are reduced to Initiative 1.. so if I really want a unit BS1! 

I also have the option for 50pts to upgrade them to lvl 2, this gives me a 66% chance of getting Symphony of Pain which means I'll be throwing out 4 maladictions of anti shooting goodness... not sure if I have the points though..

Equally, If they were 3 wounds I would have been sorely tempted to look at terminator armouring them and then sticking them at the front to take bullets effectively protecting 2 of my marine units... at 2 wounds each I am quite happy keeping them cheap.

15 Chaos Marines: 2 plasma guns... this is the mainstay of my army... a solid backbone of rock hard marines.. ld is a slight concern but not worth paying 15pts to make them Vets. With no rhino's I have to be careful with where they are deployed as they are my troops.. and I only have so many turns to get them there.. Note the plasma gun over the meltagun.. these are units who like to be 12-24 inches away.. whilst not bad in assault it's not somewhere they want to be!

I have 3 such units. 

5 Terminators: Mark of Tzeentch, 3 combi plasma, 2 combi melta, 2 chainfists, some combination of power weapons. As you may have guessed.. I don't like marks, as they don't add to OPTIONS they just specialise your unit often IMO inefficiently.. however, I have made a potential exception for MoT in this case.. cos the difference between a 5++ and a 4++ is HUGE, I guess it depends how many points it is. 

Equally Mark of Slaanesh and Icon of FnP was considered for the blocks of marines, but the maths went something like this.. I am paying 30pts for the mark and 30 for the icon that's 60 pts for something that will save 5 marines so 65pts worth of marines and Initiative 5.. assuming I don't get hit with anything str 8 or higher.. and I only become worth it if I lose my entire squad.. this is a case of if no option is clearly better, go positive!

I like this unit as discussed above, I was looking at the option of all plasma but the melta gives me the OPTION of popping vehicles or more likely fortifications while still being a threat to most units.. The interesting thing about this unit is they are my manoeuvrability as they deep strike a likely 10/15 special weapons being in location turn 2 is cool!

Necron Lord; sempiternal weave (Hq tax really.. but given the 15pts of 2+ save to make the warriors or the cypteks super endurable.)

15 warriors: provides solid anti tank, a reliable anti infantry repression and a solid objective holder.. takes my troops up to 60.

3 Crypteks, 2 storm one despair with veil of darkness. (these guys rock... my answer for landraiders/monaliths etc)

So my final estimated list:

Sorcerer, mark of slaanesh x2

Necron Lord, 2+ save

3x 15 chaos marines, 2 plasma guns

1x 15 necron warriors

3 crypteks, 2x storm, 1 despair with veil of darkness

3x 5 terminators, 5 combi weapons, 2 chainfists possibly mark of tzeentch

I suspect this list will be 1800pts or so.. so a bit of pruning for 1750

-----

Manoeuvrability is the gaping weakness as it can move a grand total of 6.. I was looking at undivided sorcerers with telekinesis for the chance of gate of infinity... and I have the option of running the despair cryptek with the warriors if I want the more mobile troops. In my opinion it is the terminators that makes the list shine as it gives a potent combat threat but also the aggressive deepstrike options to negate the 24 inch nature of the list.

Anti flyer is a potential weakness, but again I don't see the need to pay 100pts for an Aegis defense line and flak cannon and then play someone who has no flyers.. I have just used my own principle of specialisation to deny against myself...

Equally.. what do flyers really do! Flyers don't win games, they are support units at best, worst case scenario I have a vendetta flying around lascannoning my terminators, 2.25 hits, 2 wounds, 1 terminator a turn it still needs 5 turns of shooting to get it's points back... and they can't deny/claim objectives.. so the only flyers I am 'afraid' of are the nightscythe and doomscythe because of their objective claiming troop positioning and anti infantry nature.. But my match up vs. Crons should be good anyway.. as they are so specialised at anti tank and I don't have any..

For example: 13pts gets you a Necron Warrior or a Chaos Marine 3+ save vs. 4+ save with a 5+ Reanimate is similar.. 18 marines wounded 6 die... 18 warriors wounded 9 die, 3 get back up.. 12 survive in both cases..

But when we take away the gauss rule.. the marines have a far superior stat line... which demonstrates how specialised Crons are.. When you consider they are one of the metagame defining lists I am confident that at a tournament I would expect to go against atleast one cron player...

So there's my thoughts and my adaptation at combining all the above discussed principles into a semi tangable list.

Hey all, I'm really sorry for a lack of any tactics updates! Blame GW2...

Anyway, I thought I'd try and make it up by putting some WIP of my Crons up, here is me attempting to do freehand!

Side View:

Whilst it may not be entirely clear this is a tree and leaves on the base trying to give it a bit of depth.


And the top:

This is going to be a depiction of an Eldar harlequin fighting a necron warrior who will be on the other wing. Needs a bit of touching up but you can see what I'm trying to do :)

Painting on the side...

A little painting I've been doing on the side of devising dastardly tactics...


Necron Wraith Prototype;

Top Side Pictures above, showing the digital pattern and the attempt of NMM on the chassis.

A face only a mother could like...

Base will have rocks where the grey is and possible PVA over the lava haven't quite decided...